To close out 2025, I’d like to revisit a critical aspect that’s being ignored – the economy itself. Ken Webster is a leading thinker in the circular economy field, and one of his many roles is with Earth4All, where he has been exploring the benefits of a Universal Basic Dividend. Ken and Catherine discussed this, and more aspects of circularity at an economic level back in 2023, and it’s highly relevant today, as the challenges we face loom larger.

Catherine says: Ken Webster is one of my circular economy heroes, and is widely acknowledged as one of the foremost thinkers in the field. From 2010 – 2018, Ken was Head of Innovation for the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, shaping current concepts of a ‘circular economy’.. Ken also co-wrote the book that first opened my eyes to the circular economy back in 2011 – Sense and Sustainability, co-written with Craig Johnson.

One of Ken’s best-known books, The Circular Economy: A Wealth of Flows, relates the connections between systems thinking, economic and business opportunity and the transition to a circular economy.

I’m very keen to read one of Ken’s most recent books, co-written with Alex Duff. Ken and Alex use a storytelling approach based on the The Wonderful Wizard of Oz to offer a new and compelling narrative about the future direction of our economy, calling for macro-economic system redesign. It’s called The Wonderful Circles of Oz: A Circular Economy Story – you’ll find links in the shownotes.

Ken’s written several more thought-provoking works on the circular economy, including ABC+D: Creating a Regenerative Circular Economy for All – also co-written with Craig Johnson, and we mention some of these as we go along.

This was a wide-ranging conversation about system-scale issues and concepts. I tried my best to keep up with Ken’s thinking as we explored some of the big ideas he has been working on, including:

• A Universal Basic Dividend – not to be confused with UBI, or Universal Basic Income. We discuss why a Universal Basic Dividend would be a good thing, how it would be funded and where the money would flow to.
• We move onto The Commons – what that really means, and how it could be better accommodated in our modern economies, in a meaningful and sustainable way.
• Ken talks about the rentier economy, and rentiers. If you’re not familiar with that term, it’s someone who earns income from capital without working – for example by owning property or land that is rented out to tenants; by owning shares or bonds that pay dividends or interest, and so on.
• We discuss why the economy isn’t working for the vast majority of people around the world, and what’s getting in the way of an ‘economy for all’.
• We talk about some of the signals for change, with people are starting to see the potential of a future with community, connection and caring – caring for each other, and for our Mother Earth. The potential of a future that’s not all about ‘Work, Buy, Consume, Die’.

I’ve split our conversation into two parts – the 2^nd part is available here: 119 Bonus Ken Webster: the circular ECONOMY! Part 2